SOCIAL transition is not surgery or hormones. It’s wearing the clothes you want, and being referred to by your preferred name and pronouns. It’s a way to see what it would be like to be who you want to be, without any kind of serious commitment.
No. Just plain FUCK No! Tanya is a 9 year old girl, who storywise was assaulted, restrained, beaten, stabbed, drugged, and raped not even a full 24 hours ago. She’s got far too much trauma to deal with, to be having such nonsensical notions thrust upon her for her to deal with alongside everything else she’s trying to deal with. Even if she hadn’t been raped, Tanya is still only 9 years old. She’s far too young to have some transhustler telling her “just because you were born a girl doesn’t mean you actually are a girl” or something else… Read more »
Unfortunately other people who should know better, don’t. They even developed drugs for children to delay adolescence. Undoubtedly they result in damaged adults, just as Thalidomide being taken by pregnant women in Europe caused deformed babies.
Social transitioning counselors don’t “thrust” things on people. They suggest that their patient COULD BE a boy, or a girl, or non-binary, and provide ways for their patient to FIND OUT what gender(s) the patient feels they are. It’s a journey, not a destination.
None of that changes the fact that Tanya is still a rape victim who hasn’t had time to process what she’s been subjected to. Exactly what part of that situation suggests this or the immediate future being the perfect time to introduce her to such ridiculous concepts and notions? Honestly. Do the transhustlers just go looking for young rape victims, who’ve already had their sense of reality violently destabilized, to take advantage of their emotional and psychological vulnerability? Is blaming the victim for their rape because of their gender a basic part of the approach to doing business? Do they… Read more »
No, transition therapists do not look for rape victims. They don’t take advantage of people’s vulnerability either. They don’t victim blame, and they don’t say “you wouldn’t have been raped if you were another gender.” (there’s more than two) Their goal isn’t to increase the number of trans people. Their goal is to alleviate people’s dysphoria. And to answer your OTHER question, as to why I thought it would be a good time for social (not medical) transitioning was Tanya saying they “hate being a girl” and “Daddy telling me to wear a stupid skirt all the time.” Social transition… Read more »
First, even if we were buying that load of bilge water, it still comes off as being extremely predatory, bordering on downright pedophilic, to be looking at a prepubescent rape victim who hasn’t had the time or opportunity to work through the trauma she’s going through, and start suggesting that transgenderism might be the answer she’s looking for. Tanya is going to need months of help from friends, family, and professionals who’re experienced and committed to this specific topic. She doesn’t need any snake oil salesman complicating the matter. You might as well try telling Hunter that maybe he’s a… Read more »
Easy there Frank, we get you don’t understand gender, or chromosomes, and you’re not a biologist since you’re making those statements… We’re also seeing your transphobia… and for now; that’s fine. You’re not required to know of or understand the depths of scientific understanding…. But you are going to be requested to calm down. Literally all Hattie was suggesting, at least to absolutely everything I read from them, was regular old trauma therapy and letting her break some stereotypical gender normals, like letting Tanya simply continue on with her “tomboyishness” and not try enforcing wearing skirts or simply LET her… Read more »
Transphobia? No dear Krayton I’m afraid you misunderstand. I don’t suffer from a persistent, excessive, unrealistic fear of transgenderism. I just plain hate the folks because of how they treated me. I used to support the trans community and the people, advocating and lobbying right alongside them because I wanted them to enjoy being treated like everyone else. But when I said I had no interest in dating women who transitioned from being men, they called me transphobic and all of my contributions to the cause was swiftly forgotten about. So when I see some dude on here looking at… Read more »
This is only marginally simplified, but the actions of some spoil the bunch. Noted.
And what’s wrong with “allowing” Tanya to do those things? Who or what does it harm? The short answer is no one and nothing.
I guess my question is now; why would you get upset if that option was presented to someone if it can possibly help a trauma victim cope with the situation thy were put in?
To get into what would be wrong with the proposal we need to remember the story is set somewhere in the 1990s. Political incorrectness was sill openly rampant and extremely aggressive during that time frame. Within the confines of the story suggesting Tanya consider transitioning in response to being raped would only cause her even more trauma than she has now. She’s already attending a school filled with bullies, victims of sexual abuse, both, and who knows how many of the students have been harmed and just looking for an excuse to make themselves feel better. Under those circumstances Tanya… Read more »
The 90’s were certainly a time of social transition. Not only on sexuality, but also various social norms. Ideas planted in the 60’s and 70’s were starting to blossom, and that had lead to current. This video, really, is several decades in the making.
Children do not change though. In any generation they still view somebody different as weird. People who are too small, people who are too fat, people with physical or mental handicaps, etc. That was true millennia ago and will still be true millennia in the future. Also children do not always believe in the values of grownups.
So, you’ve decided to hate an entire community of people just because you had a bad experience with some of them? That’s kind of ridiculous and unfair; not every member of a community thinks the same and has the same ideas and just because the trans people you knew supposedly attacked for the statements you made doesn’t mean they all would or that they all agree with the sentiment and while I don’t agree with Hattie’s opinions about Tanya, I still feel like your response was a bit much. It’s okay not to like things, but you don’t have to… Read more »
Yes, it’s that’s just as bad. You’re assigning collective guilt to an entire group of people just because some of them did bad things, even though the majority of them had nothing to do with it.
I think your underselling the point. Namely when this happened to me at least there was a lot of online bullying some people in college campuses also exclude you from areas. I got lucky because the original person bore me no ill will and was with me when we had to deal with the peanut gallery. I’m assuming the other guy wasn’t that lucky. Like with the people who transition back to their original genders the support does stop if you don’t share the same dogma. It gets pretty dangerous too. I’ve had my car egged my computer doxxed and… Read more »
When you find out that the people you’ve tried to help just view you as a disposable tool, just a means to an end to benefit themselves at your own expense, it tends to sour your outlook on things. If someone is going to turn on you at the first sign of diverging thought, why continue to help them?
I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t have any interest in helping people who will tell me to my face that, because of my dating and gender preferences, I’m directly responsible for others experiencing depression and committing suicide.
So let me get this straight Frank, you were “advocating and lobbying right alongside [trans people]” but because they were uncomfortable when you said you would automatically exclude trans women from the pool of people you would date you then flip-floped completely to the other side? You previously supported them but now have just about the most extreme anti-trans view you could possibly have? And that makes sense because People hate Germans because of the Holocaust? Which, since you used that as a justification obviously means that you think that people SHOULD hate all Germans for the Holocaust, otherwise if… Read more »
It’s not a matter of them being uncomfortable with the fact I wouldn’t date transwomen. They outright labeled me as transphobic because I said that I had no interest in dating those who were born males. Special interest groups will only see you as an ally as long as you agree with them completely. If you step out of line you’re suddenly persona non grata with them. So why continue to support those who won’t return the favor? I’ve had enough abusive relationships to know when it’s time to get out. Also I think you’re getting me and Long Tom… Read more »
Yeah been there. Though in my case the transperson understood and the peanut gallery freaked on me in their stead. It was almost traumatizing on how quick they flip the script even when the people in question were fine with being friends.
Multiple disciplines of science (hard and soft) are at odds with your asserted opinion. Like everything else in the universe, gender’s not black-and-white. Or binary, if you will. There’s a gradation — a spectrum — of gender. I understand that you feel otherwise, but the preponderance of evidence disagrees.
There is a third gender, namely hermaphroditism, which occurs naturally in animals such as slugs and earthworms, and in extremely rare cases in other animals, including humans. But personally I find the concept of being “genderfluid” to be pseudoscience like ESP and the Bermuda Triangle proved to be generations ago. If anyone here is a real biologist, they can explain further.
Technically there are real hermaphrodites out there. So there is technically a third gender/sex. Mostly the extra part is useless but it is infact real. It’s really rare but it has to be noted in conversations like this merely on the base that it is fact.
Y’know. I remember when my brother was bout 4 years old, mom let him pick what to wear most days. Somedays you ended up with him wearing long pants even though it was hot, some days he wore shorts even thought it was cold. (Keeping in mind of course that we are talking about reasonable temperatures, not shorts in snow.) And that was okay, because that was his choice. If he wanted to wear something silly looking, that was up to him. He’d be told “It’s warm today, so those pants might make you feel hot” and sometimes he’d change… Read more »
In the 1990’s, and for the matter decades before, plenty of females including little girls wore trousers. It’s not like the nineteenth century when women were expected to wear skirts, and even then women who were out in bad weather were allowed to wear trousers outdoors. Tanya’s father should have the sense to realize that not all girls like wearing skirts.
If I remember correctly, Flora herself is mostly if not always wearing pants throughout the story. I assume it was personal preference rather than her having been a victim of child sexual abuse or because she wanted to be “manly”.
I dont think Tanya is trans; she’s just (rightfully) upset over her rape, thinking it wouldn’t have happened if she weren’t female. She’s also angry over the fact that her dad is trying to force gender roles on her, forcing her to dress girly and act like a “proper lady” and such.
Tanya should be telling her father this. Maybe Flora can be there with Tanya to give her the moral support and to make it easier telling Colin. Not to mention, it may help Tanya immensely to let her wear jeans and pants and to give her more confidence to be who she truly is. And based on Tanya’s rant, she might be gay or bi and has no way to express to those close to her what she is going through. Also, her getting raped by Jestan, is going to make her resent and hate being a girl. All I… Read more »
I agree, but Colin should have been looking for a good counselor and/or therapist for Tanya, even asking those in kit protection services for references. Right now Flora is doing the right thing by gently coaxing Tanya to vent the best way she can at the moment. Not to mention, Colin is out of his element right now and he is needing all the help he can with helping Tanya heal and cope with what happened to her as well as learning how to listen to what she has to say and properly respond.
And we really haven’t seen anything about what Colin has been doing while at work. Because it’s not relevant to the story at this point.
Also remember Colin’s position: He’s a district manager for his nationwide grocery chain. He probably already has insurance he’ll need to go through in order to arrange for her counseling.
I have no doubt we’ll be finding out what has been happening behind the scenes as it becomes important in the moment. Campion is just too good a storyteller to let it bog things down further.
Frank
3 years ago
#2049
Tanya and Kaleb are roughly the same size. Flora letting her wear one of his pairs of pants might give her a nice moment of contrast so she can evaluate her own opinion on clothing. And Benni can point out from experience that, be it pants or a skirt, both can be taken off very easily if someone has bad intentions for another. Help her realize that even if she’d been wearing jeans, Jestan still would’ve done what he did. Benni is probably going to be the critical key to Tanya’s recovery in this situation. He has far more experience… Read more »
I agree, but he needs to be careful how he tells Tanya about his experience and what happened to can happen to boys and has been a rape victim his entire life to this point.
As a bit of biological information, there are far more than two chromosomes. In humans, it is 23 distinct different pairs, though most look almost identical except for the 23rd pair, what is typically called the ‘sex chromosomes’, the X and Y, with the X being larger and the Y being smaller. In many studies, it has been concluded that the Y chromosome is slowly dying off, but that maleness will continue, as it has in some other mammals, thanks, in no small part, to the phenomenon of intersexuality. As for there being ‘only two physical genders’, science has to… Read more »
Um, why is there such a long discussion here on transgenderism here to begin with? Tanya mentioned hating having a vagina because she thought it was the reason she was victimized, not because she wanted to be a male.
Because a certain someone here in the comments looked at the situation with Tanya, who was raped not even 24 hours ago, who hasn’t even had time to begin processing everything properly, and thought now was the perfect time to suggest she try transitioning to male pronouns and a male name, when that’s the last thing she needs right now.
i dont usually like to bring this up….sighs but i feel like this might help when i was in high school…i had my first……physical interaction with a male and it was a time i was not ready for it, i wasnt raped, thankfully, out of all places it happened in the school library so all i had to do was just say no and he backed off since ya know….library, he would easily get in trouble for it some might say because of that maybe its not a big deal….all he said to me beforehand was to meet him in… Read more »
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Sounds like someone could use some social transitioning, and maybe a new name. Like “Tanner” perhaps.
I don’t think that Tanya necessarily decided she wants to become a male a la Chaz Bono.
SOCIAL transition is not surgery or hormones. It’s wearing the clothes you want, and being referred to by your preferred name and pronouns. It’s a way to see what it would be like to be who you want to be, without any kind of serious commitment.
No. Just plain FUCK No! Tanya is a 9 year old girl, who storywise was assaulted, restrained, beaten, stabbed, drugged, and raped not even a full 24 hours ago. She’s got far too much trauma to deal with, to be having such nonsensical notions thrust upon her for her to deal with alongside everything else she’s trying to deal with. Even if she hadn’t been raped, Tanya is still only 9 years old. She’s far too young to have some transhustler telling her “just because you were born a girl doesn’t mean you actually are a girl” or something else… Read more »
Unfortunately other people who should know better, don’t. They even developed drugs for children to delay adolescence. Undoubtedly they result in damaged adults, just as Thalidomide being taken by pregnant women in Europe caused deformed babies.
Social transitioning counselors don’t “thrust” things on people. They suggest that their patient COULD BE a boy, or a girl, or non-binary, and provide ways for their patient to FIND OUT what gender(s) the patient feels they are. It’s a journey, not a destination.
None of that changes the fact that Tanya is still a rape victim who hasn’t had time to process what she’s been subjected to. Exactly what part of that situation suggests this or the immediate future being the perfect time to introduce her to such ridiculous concepts and notions? Honestly. Do the transhustlers just go looking for young rape victims, who’ve already had their sense of reality violently destabilized, to take advantage of their emotional and psychological vulnerability? Is blaming the victim for their rape because of their gender a basic part of the approach to doing business? Do they… Read more »
No, transition therapists do not look for rape victims. They don’t take advantage of people’s vulnerability either. They don’t victim blame, and they don’t say “you wouldn’t have been raped if you were another gender.” (there’s more than two) Their goal isn’t to increase the number of trans people. Their goal is to alleviate people’s dysphoria. And to answer your OTHER question, as to why I thought it would be a good time for social (not medical) transitioning was Tanya saying they “hate being a girl” and “Daddy telling me to wear a stupid skirt all the time.” Social transition… Read more »
Camp Calomine–0182 | R. H. Junior Webcomics (rhjunior.com)
That was funny and evil at the same time. I love it and will now check out the rest of that comic
First, even if we were buying that load of bilge water, it still comes off as being extremely predatory, bordering on downright pedophilic, to be looking at a prepubescent rape victim who hasn’t had the time or opportunity to work through the trauma she’s going through, and start suggesting that transgenderism might be the answer she’s looking for. Tanya is going to need months of help from friends, family, and professionals who’re experienced and committed to this specific topic. She doesn’t need any snake oil salesman complicating the matter. You might as well try telling Hunter that maybe he’s a… Read more »
I think your point is well made, so I’m just going to say this once:
Easy there Frank, we get you don’t understand gender, or chromosomes, and you’re not a biologist since you’re making those statements… We’re also seeing your transphobia… and for now; that’s fine. You’re not required to know of or understand the depths of scientific understanding…. But you are going to be requested to calm down. Literally all Hattie was suggesting, at least to absolutely everything I read from them, was regular old trauma therapy and letting her break some stereotypical gender normals, like letting Tanya simply continue on with her “tomboyishness” and not try enforcing wearing skirts or simply LET her… Read more »
Transphobia? No dear Krayton I’m afraid you misunderstand. I don’t suffer from a persistent, excessive, unrealistic fear of transgenderism. I just plain hate the folks because of how they treated me. I used to support the trans community and the people, advocating and lobbying right alongside them because I wanted them to enjoy being treated like everyone else. But when I said I had no interest in dating women who transitioned from being men, they called me transphobic and all of my contributions to the cause was swiftly forgotten about. So when I see some dude on here looking at… Read more »
This is only marginally simplified, but the actions of some spoil the bunch. Noted.
And what’s wrong with “allowing” Tanya to do those things? Who or what does it harm? The short answer is no one and nothing.
I guess my question is now; why would you get upset if that option was presented to someone if it can possibly help a trauma victim cope with the situation thy were put in?
To get into what would be wrong with the proposal we need to remember the story is set somewhere in the 1990s. Political incorrectness was sill openly rampant and extremely aggressive during that time frame. Within the confines of the story suggesting Tanya consider transitioning in response to being raped would only cause her even more trauma than she has now. She’s already attending a school filled with bullies, victims of sexual abuse, both, and who knows how many of the students have been harmed and just looking for an excuse to make themselves feel better. Under those circumstances Tanya… Read more »
The 90’s were certainly a time of social transition. Not only on sexuality, but also various social norms. Ideas planted in the 60’s and 70’s were starting to blossom, and that had lead to current. This video, really, is several decades in the making.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRdvGnplLU
Children do not change though. In any generation they still view somebody different as weird. People who are too small, people who are too fat, people with physical or mental handicaps, etc. That was true millennia ago and will still be true millennia in the future. Also children do not always believe in the values of grownups.
So, you’ve decided to hate an entire community of people just because you had a bad experience with some of them? That’s kind of ridiculous and unfair; not every member of a community thinks the same and has the same ideas and just because the trans people you knew supposedly attacked for the statements you made doesn’t mean they all would or that they all agree with the sentiment and while I don’t agree with Hattie’s opinions about Tanya, I still feel like your response was a bit much. It’s okay not to like things, but you don’t have to… Read more »
There are people who hate Germans because of the Holocaust as well.
Yes, it’s that’s just as bad. You’re assigning collective guilt to an entire group of people just because some of them did bad things, even though the majority of them had nothing to do with it.
I think your underselling the point. Namely when this happened to me at least there was a lot of online bullying some people in college campuses also exclude you from areas. I got lucky because the original person bore me no ill will and was with me when we had to deal with the peanut gallery. I’m assuming the other guy wasn’t that lucky. Like with the people who transition back to their original genders the support does stop if you don’t share the same dogma. It gets pretty dangerous too. I’ve had my car egged my computer doxxed and… Read more »
When you find out that the people you’ve tried to help just view you as a disposable tool, just a means to an end to benefit themselves at your own expense, it tends to sour your outlook on things. If someone is going to turn on you at the first sign of diverging thought, why continue to help them?
I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t have any interest in helping people who will tell me to my face that, because of my dating and gender preferences, I’m directly responsible for others experiencing depression and committing suicide.
So let me get this straight Frank, you were “advocating and lobbying right alongside [trans people]” but because they were uncomfortable when you said you would automatically exclude trans women from the pool of people you would date you then flip-floped completely to the other side? You previously supported them but now have just about the most extreme anti-trans view you could possibly have? And that makes sense because People hate Germans because of the Holocaust? Which, since you used that as a justification obviously means that you think that people SHOULD hate all Germans for the Holocaust, otherwise if… Read more »
raccoony_aprilfool06.jpg (1024×760)
It’s not a matter of them being uncomfortable with the fact I wouldn’t date transwomen. They outright labeled me as transphobic because I said that I had no interest in dating those who were born males. Special interest groups will only see you as an ally as long as you agree with them completely. If you step out of line you’re suddenly persona non grata with them. So why continue to support those who won’t return the favor? I’ve had enough abusive relationships to know when it’s time to get out. Also I think you’re getting me and Long Tom… Read more »
Yeah been there. Though in my case the transperson understood and the peanut gallery freaked on me in their stead. It was almost traumatizing on how quick they flip the script even when the people in question were fine with being friends.
Multiple disciplines of science (hard and soft) are at odds with your asserted opinion. Like everything else in the universe, gender’s not black-and-white. Or binary, if you will. There’s a gradation — a spectrum — of gender. I understand that you feel otherwise, but the preponderance of evidence disagrees.
There is a third gender, namely hermaphroditism, which occurs naturally in animals such as slugs and earthworms, and in extremely rare cases in other animals, including humans. But personally I find the concept of being “genderfluid” to be pseudoscience like ESP and the Bermuda Triangle proved to be generations ago. If anyone here is a real biologist, they can explain further.
Technically there are real hermaphrodites out there. So there is technically a third gender/sex. Mostly the extra part is useless but it is infact real. It’s really rare but it has to be noted in conversations like this merely on the base that it is fact.
Y’know. I remember when my brother was bout 4 years old, mom let him pick what to wear most days. Somedays you ended up with him wearing long pants even though it was hot, some days he wore shorts even thought it was cold. (Keeping in mind of course that we are talking about reasonable temperatures, not shorts in snow.) And that was okay, because that was his choice. If he wanted to wear something silly looking, that was up to him. He’d be told “It’s warm today, so those pants might make you feel hot” and sometimes he’d change… Read more »
In the 1990’s, and for the matter decades before, plenty of females including little girls wore trousers. It’s not like the nineteenth century when women were expected to wear skirts, and even then women who were out in bad weather were allowed to wear trousers outdoors. Tanya’s father should have the sense to realize that not all girls like wearing skirts.
Women wearing pants isn’t the same thing as suddenly claiming they’re men, and wanting to be identified as men.
If I remember correctly, Flora herself is mostly if not always wearing pants throughout the story. I assume it was personal preference rather than her having been a victim of child sexual abuse or because she wanted to be “manly”.
I should think though that if he dressed up in something TOO weird, he would be laughed at by the other kids. Peer pressure does make a difference.
It does. But at 5 years old, they mostly just wondered why their own parents wouldn’t let THEM wear their cowboy costume to the store too.
She was raped not even 24 hours ago. Stop pushing the transgender agenda.
I dont think Tanya is trans; she’s just (rightfully) upset over her rape, thinking it wouldn’t have happened if she weren’t female. She’s also angry over the fact that her dad is trying to force gender roles on her, forcing her to dress girly and act like a “proper lady” and such.
Tanya should be telling her father this. Maybe Flora can be there with Tanya to give her the moral support and to make it easier telling Colin. Not to mention, it may help Tanya immensely to let her wear jeans and pants and to give her more confidence to be who she truly is. And based on Tanya’s rant, she might be gay or bi and has no way to express to those close to her what she is going through. Also, her getting raped by Jestan, is going to make her resent and hate being a girl. All I… Read more »
What Tanya needs is a mother. There is no female role model in her life. But hopefully Flora will help with that.
I agree, but Colin should have been looking for a good counselor and/or therapist for Tanya, even asking those in kit protection services for references. Right now Flora is doing the right thing by gently coaxing Tanya to vent the best way she can at the moment. Not to mention, Colin is out of his element right now and he is needing all the help he can with helping Tanya heal and cope with what happened to her as well as learning how to listen to what she has to say and properly respond.
Remember that this happened *yesterday*.
And we really haven’t seen anything about what Colin has been doing while at work. Because it’s not relevant to the story at this point.
Also remember Colin’s position: He’s a district manager for his nationwide grocery chain. He probably already has insurance he’ll need to go through in order to arrange for her counseling.
I have no doubt we’ll be finding out what has been happening behind the scenes as it becomes important in the moment. Campion is just too good a storyteller to let it bog things down further.
Tanya and Kaleb are roughly the same size. Flora letting her wear one of his pairs of pants might give her a nice moment of contrast so she can evaluate her own opinion on clothing. And Benni can point out from experience that, be it pants or a skirt, both can be taken off very easily if someone has bad intentions for another. Help her realize that even if she’d been wearing jeans, Jestan still would’ve done what he did. Benni is probably going to be the critical key to Tanya’s recovery in this situation. He has far more experience… Read more »
I agree, but he needs to be careful how he tells Tanya about his experience and what happened to can happen to boys and has been a rape victim his entire life to this point.
In other news, I like the fact that a rabbit would say “I’m all ears.”
As a bit of biological information, there are far more than two chromosomes. In humans, it is 23 distinct different pairs, though most look almost identical except for the 23rd pair, what is typically called the ‘sex chromosomes’, the X and Y, with the X being larger and the Y being smaller. In many studies, it has been concluded that the Y chromosome is slowly dying off, but that maleness will continue, as it has in some other mammals, thanks, in no small part, to the phenomenon of intersexuality. As for there being ‘only two physical genders’, science has to… Read more »
“Intersex” in a binary species isn’t a third gender. Intersex in a binary species is nothing more than an extremely rare birth defect.
Cyclopia: Causes, diagnosis, and life expectancy (medicalnewstoday.com)
Um, why is there such a long discussion here on transgenderism here to begin with? Tanya mentioned hating having a vagina because she thought it was the reason she was victimized, not because she wanted to be a male.
Because a certain someone here in the comments looked at the situation with Tanya, who was raped not even 24 hours ago, who hasn’t even had time to begin processing everything properly, and thought now was the perfect time to suggest she try transitioning to male pronouns and a male name, when that’s the last thing she needs right now.
i dont usually like to bring this up….sighs but i feel like this might help when i was in high school…i had my first……physical interaction with a male and it was a time i was not ready for it, i wasnt raped, thankfully, out of all places it happened in the school library so all i had to do was just say no and he backed off since ya know….library, he would easily get in trouble for it some might say because of that maybe its not a big deal….all he said to me beforehand was to meet him in… Read more »